Playtest Update?

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Playtest Update?

Postby hairynorseman » Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:43 am

So it's nearly October, how's the playtesting going?

I was just looking at the playtest pics and wondered if the warbands are as seen or like in some games where a unit represents much larger numbers?

Are the movement trays for ease of movement, would they need to be used?

Last quick question, when you have a solid enough beta version of the rules will they be a free download for wider playtesting or will you jump straight to a finished rulebook?

Oh and don't forget Kickstarter etc if mulla is tight at Brigade towers.

I'm sure there are plenty of other questions in my mind but those will do for now.

As a big fan of Gaelic myth I'm looking forward to Salute and seeing progress. I'd love to get into Celtos but with a young bairn and little mulla I'm reluctant to buy into it without a new ruleset to play with.

Cheers
HN
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Re: Playtest Update?

Postby durulz » Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:39 pm

hairynorseman wrote:So it's nearly October, how's the playtesting going?

I was just looking at the playtest pics and wondered if the warbands are as seen or like in some games where a unit represents much larger numbers?

Are the movement trays for ease of movement, would they need to be used?

Last quick question, when you have a solid enough beta version of the rules will they be a free download for wider playtesting or will you jump straight to a finished rulebook?

Oh and don't forget Kickstarter etc if mulla is tight at Brigade towers.

I'm sure there are plenty of other questions in my mind but those will do for now.

As a big fan of Gaelic myth I'm looking forward to Salute and seeing progress. I'd love to get into Celtos but with a young bairn and little mulla I'm reluctant to buy into it without a new ruleset to play with.

Cheers
HN


Hello.
I'll try and answer your questions as best as possible - enough to tantalise but not give too much away (not least because we are still playtesting and some bits may change).
Right.
To be honest, we haven't discussed figure ratios. I suppose a warband could either be 1:1 or 1:whatever. Think of it how you like. What matters for combat will be the number of figures remaining on the base. Celtic warfare often involved few numbers (as few as 50 combatants was considered an 'army') so thinking of them as 1:1 would be entirely feasible. But it won't matter to how the rules actually work.
The movement trays are pretty much essential to the rules. The movement tray defines the unit and the amount of space they occupy. Figures should not be permanently attached to the trays, since the rules require figure removal for recording damage. Brigade will be releasing some movement trays for the game (only a couple of days ago we made a list of the different trays that will be required so that Tony can do his computer jiggery-pokery and design some on computer for molding).
There wil be a beta-playtest. In fact, we plan to have just one or two more 'closed' playtests and then open it up for beta-testing. I don't know whether that will be open to forum users or (for sake of ease) it will fall to members of our local gaming group. Ask Tony.

The intention is to start releasing 'teasers' a bit later in the year. Probably once we move to beta-testing.
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Postby hairynorseman » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:22 am

Thanks for the reply Durulz. :)

I suppose that's what I was getting at really, removing minis to denote wounds caused.

I'm assuming the movement trays work essentially like a big figure base. Not sure about the idea of these as it seems a little "unrealistic" to have units permanently running about in a huddle, at the same time I can appreciate how it would make some things easier. Will just have to see what the rules are like when/if the beta goes public.

If Tony spots this thread then I'd love to know what his thoughts are regarding a public-beta? And if so, how long it would lkely run for before printing the rules.

Cheers

HN

P.S. Just though of another quick question, any idea how big a small playable force would likely be? I'm assuming at least 2 units/warbands and a character type, does that sound about right?

Ta
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Postby durulz » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:58 am

Foot units, generally, will comprise 10 figs on a base. That will be 9 'grunts' (with or without standard or musician) plus a leader figure - be he a champion or a hero. Cavalry will be different - either 3 or 4 figures on a base.
The idea is that each unit represents a leader and his followers, like Achilles and his myrmidons, for example. So each unit (let's call them warbands - it's more in character) is really a local warlord and his contingent. They will need to be given a name, since activation will be by a pack of cards with each warband having a card in the deck. Brigade will produce these, but you can make up your own units and names (e.g. Kluruch's Klan of Killers. Or whatever you want to call them).
Anyway.
So, size of an army...
Well, just two warbands may provide a relatively slight game, to be honest. The new Celtos rules are more 'battle' oriented than skirmish. You'll either be pleased or saddened by that news, but that's the way it is. I'd say five warbands a side would be a good starting force.
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Postby hairynorseman » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:07 pm

So does that mean warbands/units only come in those sizes? Or you build them in blocks of 10 perhaps?

If so then it seems like an odd decision to me, very structured for forces without a rigid military structure.

Five warbands? So at about 20quid each thats an entry cost of £100 plus the rulebook. For a game that has spent a good while in limbo thats quite an ask, especially as many people buying into new games purchase two starter forces to help draw local gamers in playing demos.

Having said that I'd still be interested to check out the rules. 8)

HN
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Postby durulz » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:39 am

Yes, true enough on the cost.
No one said miniatures gaming was cheap. It costs even more if you play Warhammer.
Remember, the new Celtos will be a BATTLE game, not skirmish!
Why 10 figures? Well, it was quite arbitrary - mainly because that was the number we could fit on a base. You could always put fewer figures on the base, but they will be weaker and prone to routing sooner.
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Postby hairynorseman » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:49 am

Ah right so you don't have to build warbands in blocks of 10.

It's true that Warhammer is not a cheap option. My point though was not the entry cost per se but rather that given the history of Celtos, a higher entry cost than in the past (you can currently buy a starter pack with minis, dice and rules for 20quid) could put players off or at least delay entry to the game. This could all have a knock on effect to sales, certainly in the short term.

Being a fan of Gaelic myth (my ancestry) I am still eager to see the rules and give them a chance.

HN
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Postby Germ » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:05 am

Actually on the point about cost the new skeleton spearmen unit pack works out at 12 miniatures for £12. I think we might well see the existing unit packs re-done to support the new game.

I also think it is worth stressing that the new version of Celtos is a completely different game. Gamers who bought into the original game will be able to use all of their miniatures in the new game but as already pointed out the game is going from Skirmish to mass battle.
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Postby hairynorseman » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:24 pm

Hadn't spotted that. If 12 for £12 becomes common then that certainly improves things :D Yeah, I had assumed that the warband/ unit packs as well as the army deals would be repackaged in-line with the new rules.

I know the dynamic of Celtos is shifting from skirmish to battle scale but at the same time its still Celtos, which for some people brings the baggage of its past. Its unavoidable but hopefully Brigade can help Celtos break through.

I am surprised that two versions of the game are not planned, skirmish and battle scale. That way you get the best of both worlds.

Roll on the beta-playtest.

HN
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Postby mrwigglesworth » Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:42 pm

If I may jump in. I think hairynorseman has a good point. I would love to see a new rule set with both battle and Skirmish.
You could use the movement bases with 10 minis on it for the battle or no base for a Skirmish game with 4 to 6 loose minis.
It is a good selling point to have more options. I am new to Celtos and am very excited to play the new rules.
Thanks
Dan
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Postby Germ » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:24 am

A game with duel roles is a tricky ask really.
The change in direction for Celtos was due in part to the fact that we started to play with armies containing 10 units or more like this one:
Image
the old system just ground to a halt because its mechanics just weren't built for big games. The battle shown took two experienced players most of the day to complete. Initial playtests of the new system saw us get through two games with 8-10 units per side in half the time.

At this point we are focusing all our efforts on the mass battle version.
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Postby hairynorseman » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:39 pm

So the new rules are for big games, but how big has been play tested so far?

Out of interest what was the average size game for the old rules?

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Postby Germ » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:04 pm

The very first playtests saw 8 to 10 units per side. My personal Fir Bolg army amounts to 13 units at present but we are currently looking at how the rules behave with around 5-6 units per side as a good introductory battle.

The aim is to have a system where the size of armies dictates time spent playing rather than adding to unit management and complexity.

The old system worked ok with about 5 units per side. It was the size of the unit that made more impact. Units of 4-6 combatants often saw units rout after one melee, 8-12 per unit you got more of a fight.
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Postby hairynorseman » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:01 pm

I wasn't meaning you have one ruleset that can cope with skirmish games and battle scale but rather a ruleset that focuses on say skirmish but with an expansion can handle larger games, much like 40k and Apocalypse.

I've no idea how the new rules work but could you conceivably count single models as warbands for a small skirmish game?

Focusing on large scale battles does give a grand feel to games but does require a larger initial investment. If the new rules handle 5 warband games well as an introduction and the warbands cost around £12 each then that means an initial investment of £60 plus the rulebook, I'd say that's not too bad. Obviously if the rules work well with much larger games then that's cool too, not to mention increases Brigades sales.

So 5-6 warbands is likely to be introductory games, 8-10 warbands for regular games and 13+ warbands for mega games. Does that sound about right?

I'm interested to see these new rules "hint, hint" and what minis are in the pipe lines...any concept art to show off?

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Postby durulz » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:39 am

hairynorseman wrote:I wasn't meaning you have one ruleset that can cope with skirmish games and battle scale but rather a ruleset that focuses on say skirmish but with an expansion can handle larger games, much like 40k and Apocalypse.


Nope. Sorry. It's being produced as a set of battle rules. The suggestion you have made is exactly what was wrong with the original Celtos rules - they just didn't know whether they were skirmish or battle rules and ended up doing both jobs badly (in reality they were just Warhammer with a D10, which is fine if you like 30 year old+ rule systems that are clunky and lumpen). I don't mean this in a bad way, just to head you off at the pass, as it were - the new rules will be battle rules NOT skirmish and there are no current plans to produce a set of skirmish rules. You're better off coming to terms with that. As a tantalising aside, we have been working on rules that allow heroes to offer each other out to individual duels. But that will exist as part of the battle, so the 'duel' rules will be stylised and quick and wouldn't function as skirmish rules in their own right.

hairynorseman wrote:I've no idea how the new rules work but could you conceivably count single models as warbands for a small skirmish game?


Erm...no, I don't think so. Maybe you could do a bit of tweaking. Units have 10 hits, which are recorded by removing figures from the base. So if you were to use them for skirmishing then you'd have to say each figure has ten hits and you'd have to find a way of recording it. More trouble than it's worth, in my opinion. So, no - I don't think you could use the rules for skirmish games.

hairynorseman wrote:So 5-6 warbands is likely to be introductory games, 8-10 warbands for regular games and 13+ warbands for mega games. Does that sound about right?


Yeah, that sounds about right.

hairynorseman wrote:I'm interested to see these new rules "hint, hint" and what minis are in the pipe lines...any concept art to show off?


The rules aren't currently in a position to be shared. The final tweaks are being made before we ask other people to test them. That will almost certainly be done within our gaming group (just because it is easier for communication purposes) and likely to be early in 2013. It will be up to Brigade if the draft rules are shared with anyone else.
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