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Brigade Models • View topic - Zen and the Art of Point-Factor Systems

Zen and the Art of Point-Factor Systems

Moderator: Brigadier Tony

Zen and the Art of Point-Factor Systems

Postby javelin98 » Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:30 pm

Leo: (July 23—Aug. 22): The wheelchair and the indignity will be bad enough, but the worst part is going to be explaining to your wife exactly what you said to the genie to make him take off your legs like that.
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Postby Erik M » Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:40 am

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Postby Brigadier Tony » Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:24 am

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Postby Erik M » Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:39 am

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Postby javelin98 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:50 am

Leo: (July 23—Aug. 22): The wheelchair and the indignity will be bad enough, but the worst part is going to be explaining to your wife exactly what you said to the genie to make him take off your legs like that.
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Postby Erik M » Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:34 am

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Postby Failure16 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:40 pm

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Postby javelin98 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:46 pm

Leo: (July 23—Aug. 22): The wheelchair and the indignity will be bad enough, but the worst part is going to be explaining to your wife exactly what you said to the genie to make him take off your legs like that.
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Postby Failure16 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:05 am

Random tangential thought: why shouldn't an MBT be worth ten (or thereabouts) infantry squads? Harkening back to Erik's idea about looking at things through a unit (platoon)-tinted glass, what is the average composition of an average IC2103 force? Two-thirds tanks?

Now, take that line and draw it towards current and past military trends--especially in light of how IC2103's future-history works (small, independent units hampered by lack of space shipping/hulls). I think that tanks/armor should be more expensive than infantry, based on effectiveness, prevalence, and the very design of the game itself.

Of all the ideas thus far, I particularly like weighting of frontal armor and looking at range-versus-penetration (effectiveness).

The allusion to BattleTech is a good one--the tonnage system only worked in the (g)olden (3025) days, when men were men and sheep were scared. In the current era, it's much too complicated...but IC2103 is squarely in the "simple" phase. When I am comparing elements, I look at Armor first, Penetration/Range Bands second, and Speed last. Anti-Air ability is a tie-breaker/throwaway.
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Postby javelin98 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:11 am

Leo: (July 23—Aug. 22): The wheelchair and the indignity will be bad enough, but the worst part is going to be explaining to your wife exactly what you said to the genie to make him take off your legs like that.
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Postby Failure16 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:57 am

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Postby javelin98 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:31 am

Well, here's the spreadsheet that will crunch numbers for you, in case you want to play around with it:



And now I'm off to finish assembling my Neo-Sovs...
Leo: (July 23—Aug. 22): The wheelchair and the indignity will be bad enough, but the worst part is going to be explaining to your wife exactly what you said to the genie to make him take off your legs like that.
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Postby Erik M » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:42 am

Hm....
First of all I think you need to look at what hurts what. I'm hard pressed to see the AA variants worth as much. On a MBT chassis not very much can hurt them, sure. But how much can they in turn hurt?
Planes, APC chassis and infantry. But surely not MBT's, right? (Unless it's an Ack-Ack off course....)

I think you need to make a generic unit and then compare it in a quick firefight with each other unit. The various range bands and penetration of IC make this a hard exercise, can that table be minimized to least denominator?
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Postby javelin98 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:19 pm

That's an excellent point, and it brings into question what qualifies as "AA". Quad-50's and Stinger missiles would be largely ineffective against MBTs. On the other hand, the German 88mm gun was very effective when employed in an antitank role.

The difference, of course, is the means and method of delivery; the Stinger is far more effective as an AA weapon because of its specialized guidance systems and payload, but that specialization means it's largely useless in any other context. The Quad-50s (or quad-20mm or whatever) is probably the least effective AA system, but can be devastating against soft-skinned and infantry targets.

I think far-future AA systems will either be of the guided-missile variety or energy beams (laser, graser, microwave, particle, etc.) which are instantaneously effective without the complicated ballistics (and Kentucky windage) required of projectile weapons trying to engage a fast-moving aircraft. A third option would be some kind of thermobaric explosive charge or whiz-bang weather machine that creates such a disruption of the air in front of an aircraft that it loses all airworthiness and has a good chance of crashing. Oh, and a fourth option would be an EMP weapon that incapacitates the aircraft's systems, causing it to fall out of the sky.

Of those, the missiles and air-disruption weapons would be of minimal usefulness against ground targets. The energy beam and EMP weapon, though, could do some significant damage. Even infantry would be vulnerable to EMP attack if they were kitted out with electronic sights, exoskeletons, onboard computers, portable radios, etc.

So, without more detail on what each Iron Cow AA unit is carrying for specific armament, it's hard to determine what its effectiveness might be against anything other than aircraft. Makes for a neat intellectual exercise, though.

I do agree that any point system would need to be playtested using some standardized "average" unit. Some of the assumptions in the point system I came up with rest on the concept of an "average" unit. The Speed Multiplier, for instance; I took an average of the speeds of all the units shown on the IC page and it came out to 248-point-something, so I figured that I could use 250 as the base speed for an average unit. Dividing the Speed by 250 then gave me a measure of the comparative amount of power needed to push the unit along. Multiplying that by the Defence Factor was then used to estimate how large the powerplant would need to be to push a unit that solid that fast.
Leo: (July 23—Aug. 22): The wheelchair and the indignity will be bad enough, but the worst part is going to be explaining to your wife exactly what you said to the genie to make him take off your legs like that.
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